What's going on with Manny?

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captainliteral		#121	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 2877 08/01/08 10:25 AM RemDawg	To those who seem to lay the blame for this exclusively on the front office, the front office didn't take a swing at a teammate or push the traveling secretary to the ground. The front office didn't bash manny daily on espn desportes over the last week. Manny wrote his own ticket out of town. Yes, he used to be one of the best right handed hitters in baseball and he used to wear out lefties, he isn't now what he was a couple of years ago and he isn't going to be going forward. What his behavior of the last week showed is that he was being, and would most likely continue to be a clubhouse cancer. Jason Bay is good, but no Manny offensively and, thank goodness, he's not going to tear the team apart. Addition through subtraction. Last Edited By: captainliteral 08/01/08 10:36 AM. Edited 1 time.
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wallysgurl		#122	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1064 08/01/08 11:09 AM Dawg in Training	Interesting article by Sean McAdam of the Providence Journal: http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_trade01_08-01-08_O7B2I4V_v19.40422d2.html One quote from it: General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team's dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go. If his antics weren't directly responsible for the team's slide - the Sox have lost five of six on the current homestand, their worst stretch of play at Fenway all season - they were certainly serving as a distraction. Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn't be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn't engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team's playoff push. Joan
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itisnextyr		#123	[url]	[-]
Dawg in Training Posts: 556 08/01/08 11:27 AM Rem Pup	Joan : There is a minority of posters here , of whom I am one, that say this is classic Theo use of mediots like MacAdam, and especially Edes. He puts this out there with unamed sources. Who are the "veterans"? I would be very interested to hear from the unanimous veterans I respect (Captain Mike Lowell, Wake, David Ortiz) on this issue. Something tells me this is b. s. .
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zimmerolls		#124	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 5629 08/01/08 11:55 AM Deputy Dawg	I guess the thing that is truly telling is that Manny really didn't give a crap about anyone but MANNY. The RS had their you know what in a vice and he seemed to enjoy it. BORAS is a giant pig. Btw a very effective giant pig. He basically manipulated the JD deal. Manny has a good chance of ending up as a mfy next year. albeit a 38 year old mfy. While I don't wish him an ill fate I hope that his numbers decline dramatically. I can't say that the FO are angels but this guy had a terrific contract and he could never stop crying about it, the city, his 'peace'. Right now I feel like giving manny a peace sign all right with a missing index finger. yeah you know what I mean, but I'd have to ban myself so use your imagination. Sue Sorry to ask this--did we just win ANOTHER World Series?
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itisnextyr		#125	[url]	[-]
Dawg in Training Posts: 557 08/01/08 12:20 PM Rem Pup	Agreed, Sue, as to Boras. While Manny may not be the brightest bulb in the box, I suspect Boras used it to his advantage by planting seeds in Manny's mind about how to get out of (Boston) his contract options. It worked....I see that Joe Torre is quoted as now saying that he has NEVER heard a Manny teammate dis Manny.
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7isback		#126	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1249 08/01/08 12:33 PM Hot Dawg	Ya know Sue, I think that is the gesture of the week. For the media for their usual tossing people under busses, the FO for something I am not quite clear on yet, but it is not good, and of course Manny. I certainly understand what it feels like to have your boss do absolutely everything to make you quit or get fired, or otherwise make you know that you do not matter to them. HOWEVER, there is the right and wrong way to deal with this. You could either a) shut them up and do an extraordinary job, b) do the bare minimum and look ealsewhere, or c) say "f you" and respond to their crap. Manny did b and c. Not good and certainly does not help his case at all. I feel for Manny, but you have to rise about what is going on. Admittedly he took the low road. That being said, this deals smells like a portapotty at Woodstock. It may have been necessary, but this mess was going on for too long to get so little for the deal. I know there is a whole lot that we do not know about and it probably for the best that we do not. This team is a mess with or without Manny, there is so much that needed to be addressed and continues to need attention whether or not other trades were made. Maybe Jason Bay will provide enough of relief for the team to perform better. I do not know. I will just continue to watch and go to games, but I will have a heavy heart. I've gone through it before and I will many many many more times in my Red Sox life.
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eekman63		#127	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 5036 08/01/08 12:54 PM Stat Dawg	I know this has already been posted, but I'm posting it again for those of you who must have ignored it: General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team's dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go. If his antics weren't directly responsible for the team's slide - the Sox have lost five of six on the current homestand, their worst stretch of play at Fenway all season - they were certainly serving as a distraction. Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn't be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn't engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team's playoff push. Theo was under pressure to unload Manny at whatever the cost, and he supported his team by doing it. Great job getting an all-star in return! Every day is a new adventure!
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youngd2		#128	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 10070 08/01/08 1:06 PM RemDawg	Maybe they were in a slide at home becasue they had the very hot Yankees in town and then the Angels who have the best record in the league in town. Oh nevermind, that had nothing to do with us losing. As someone else pointed out, the reason why Bay is an All-Star is that someone from Pittsburgh had to have been an all-star. I'm sick of this quoting of unkown people within the Red Sox orginization. If these players had a problem with Manny, why don't they man up and say it like Curt did. These Sox spin freeking everything. It's worse than a political campaign IMO. _________________ Green Monster 1947 - 2002. RIP
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sbukoski		#129	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1147 08/01/08 1:12 PM Wistah Dawg	youngd2 wrote: As someone else pointed out, the reason why Bay is an All-Star is that someone from Pittsburgh had to have been an all-star. So he wasn't worthy of being an All-Star in 2005 or 2006? Give me a freakin' break!!! His HR, RBI, AVG, SLG were all up there. To say the only reason he was there is because someone had to be is an insult to him. Check out his stats (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=424726) yourself. "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me, and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you ... we are in charge of our Attitudes" - Charles Swindoll
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mimix5here		#130	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1690 08/01/08 1:16 PM Rem Pup	a) shut them up and do an extraordinary job, IMO this is what Manny did in the 2003 season after Theo tried to give him away during the off season with no one able to afford his contract. If my memory serves me right, the following year after the 2003 season, they tried to trade Manny for Arod, and Nomar for Ordonez. The difference was night and day...Manny did that extraordinary job we were talking about (MVP of the 2004 WS) and Nomar was run out of town on a rail, because he "sulked" and also suffered from "phantom" injuries according to the FO. b) do the bare minimum and look elsewhere, Were his injuries real? I don't know, but I do know that whatever was said about Manny depended on the mediots, and the FO, and what BS they wanted to spread. I'm sure it must have gotten old. Have any of you ever felt unappreciated, and gone into cruise control? c) say "f you" and respond to their crap. Other than the annual trade nonsense, Manny had been relatively quiet up until these past few weeks, so IMO he had shown terrific restraint. I will concede that Manny had to go for peace to again reign supreme in Beantown, because it was at a point where no one was happy, but I will again reiterate that I absolutely hate the fact that it came to the point where Manny became so unhappy in Boston, that he wanted to leave. I enjoyed the Manny years, and feel very sad that they're over.
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yaztheman		#131	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1825 08/01/08 1:17 PM Hot Dawg	At the end of the day, I still don't seeing anyone saying this trade makes the Red Sox a better team. Furthermore, I believe the Sox could have done what Steve Phillips suggested on ESPN radio: tell Manny they would not pick up his option so now all he had to do was go out and put up big numbers to get a big FA contract. Problem solved, IMO. Instead, the Sox gave away the store. As I wrote before, Manny + Moss + Hansen + $7MM for Bay is a rotten deal. I think this got very personal when it should have been business. Red Sox . . . Champions of the New Millennium
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youngd2		#132	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 10071 08/01/08 1:25 PM RemDawg	sbukoski wrote: youngd2 wrote: As someone else pointed out, the reason why Bay is an All-Star is that someone from Pittsburgh had to have been an all-star. So he wasn't worthy of being an All-Star in 2005 or 2006? Give me a freakin' break!!! His HR, RBI, AVG, SLG were all up there. To say the only reason he was there is because someone had to be is an insult to him. Check out his stats (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=424726) yourself. Those stats aren't that great. He's never had an OPS over 1. Manny has done that 7 times. He's kind of like JD Drew and Geoff Jenkins. Manny is kind of like Ken Griffey, Jr. Would you take Jr's stats or Jenkins's stats? _________________ Green Monster 1947 - 2002. RIP
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sbukoski		#133	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1148 08/01/08 1:37 PM Wistah Dawg	youngd2 wrote: Those stats aren't that great. He's never had an OPS over 1. Manny has done that 7 times. He's kind of like JD Drew and Geoff Jenkins. Manny is kind of like Ken Griffey, Jr. Would you take Jr's stats or Jenkins's stats? And only once in the last 4 years. Let's face it, Manny is on the decline. He is NOT the hitter he once was. Yes, he's still great, but he's declining. In almost every category Bay and Ramirez are very comparable. Ramirez IS the better hitter, but Bay is not a huge drop off assuming he can continue. People keep thinking of the old Manny. This isn't him. This is the aging Manny. While still great, not as great as he use to be. I doubt you'll see another OPS above 1 for him again. "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me, and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you ... we are in charge of our Attitudes" - Charles Swindoll
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zimmerolls		#134	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 5630 08/01/08 1:53 PM Deputy Dawg	"Furthermore, I believe the Sox could have done what Steve Phillips suggested on ESPN radio: tell Manny they would not pick up his option" I have a hard time believing that if it was this easy it would have been done. The FO just doesn't seem isn't that naive. IMO there is more to it. Either Boras didn't trust that they would do it or there is more than meets the eye with both sides. I know a lot of teammates loved Manny but I can't help feeling when a guy making the dough he does starts to dog it during a pennant race that it begins to become an issue. No one here is going to dispute that we all didn't love the guys bat. Sue Sorry to ask this--did we just win ANOTHER World Series?
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MORNDEWVT		#135	[url]	[-]
Rem Pup Posts: 17 08/01/08 2:07 PM	sbukoski wrote: Bay is not a huge drop off assuming he can continue Big assumption. As I've said several times - I like Jason Bay - but... putting up decent numbers in games that don't matter in the NL is a very different thing than putting up numbers in a pennant race in the AL East. And his 2007 was pretty underwhelming. The up side is that he has never had a chance to taste the air of a MLB pennant race - he could thrive in the atmosphere. We shall see - but give the guy a chance to breath.
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eekman63		#136	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 5038 08/01/08 2:56 PM Stat Dawg	I think the question is not whether 29 year old Jason Bay can keep it up, but whether 36-year old Manny can keep up HIS performance!! I'm glad to have the younger and more walk-efficient Jason Bay myself, and YES, I WILL say it: At this point, the Red Sox ARE a better team WITHOUT Manny!!! Every day is a new adventure!
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yaztheman		#137	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1826 08/01/08 3:15 PM Hot Dawg	eekman63 wrote: and YES, I WILL say it: At this point, the Red Sox ARE a better team WITHOUT Manny!!! For your own sake please don't say this around anyone within physical proximity -- it could be dangerous. Red Sox . . . Champions of the New Millennium
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youngd2		#138	[url]	[-]
RemDawg Posts: 10072 08/01/08 3:28 PM RemDawg	eekman63 wrote: I think the question is not whether 29 year old Jason Bay can keep it up, but whether 36-year old Manny can keep up HIS performance!! I'm glad to have the younger and more walk-efficient Jason Bay myself, and YES, I WILL say it: At this point, the Red Sox ARE a better team WITHOUT Manny!!! Have you seen the stat sheets for each player? Manny still has the higher BA, SLG, and OBP. _________________ Green Monster 1947 - 2002. RIP
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MORNDEWVT		#139	[url]	[-]
Rem Pup Posts: 18 08/01/08 3:30 PM	I just hope Bay doesn't feel pressure from the fans to replace Manny. - I think we should be more looking at this more like we would a prospect call up. - He's done great playing at AAA+ ball (the Pirates), lets see how he handles The Show. - He will be facing better pitching, playing with more talented teammates and in front of bigger, more vocal crowds. He's been given his shot at the big time, let's all pull for him, but don't put too much weight on his shoulders. Manny is gone and he isn't coming back - don't beat the dead horse. 3hrs 35 min to the new era. Go Sox
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yaztheman		#140	[url]	[-]
Hot Dawg Posts: 1827 08/01/08 3:37 PM Hot Dawg	youngd2 wrote: Have you seen the stat sheets for each player? Manny still has the higher BA, SLG, and OBP. Plus, to make it worse: Bay w/RISP: .216 Bay w/RISP 2 outs: .212 Bay w/bases loaded: .000 These stats are comparable to Tek, not Manny. Red Sox . . . Champions of the New Millennium
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